Genealogy! Epstein/Hyman

[christine~]

I've often meant to try to assemble a Brian Epstein family tree, but Real Life gets in the way of everything I want to accomplish.

However, I do check up on the progress of the Brian Epstein Wikipedia entry and make small edits when I'm absolutely certain there's an error.

Yesterday I noticed what I was sure must be wrong: it said that Brian's grandfather Isaac Epstein married Dinah Hyman ~~ well, since Brian's father Harry married Malka (Queenie) Hyman, of course both Brian's mother's and his grandmother's maiden names could not be identical. Obviously a slip-up, somebody wasn't careful, somebody confused Brian's mother and grandmother.

So, before arbitrarily editing the entry today ~ and how? ~ after all, I had no idea what Dinah's maiden name actually was ~ I wandered over to the Brian "discussion" area to check out if anyone else mentioned it.

Surprise.
Here's what I found ~~

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from TALK: BRIAN EPSTEIN

• Isaac Epstein
Does anyone have more information regarding Brian’s grandfather, Isaac? I know he was a Russian immigrant, and arrived in Liverpool with his sister. He opened his first shop in Walton Road and presumably lived above it at first. I would be interested in knowing where he then lived etc. Thanks,
--Patthedog (talk) 12:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Patthedog knows this now, but other editors should know that Epstein's father was from Hodan, Lithuania.
--andreasegde (talk) 00:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

• Brakn has unearthed a census that says Isaac and Rachael Epstein were born in Russia, although I have seen Lithuania mentioned a few times on the net and in books.
--andreasegde (talk) 21:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Got it: "In 1795, the joint state was dissolved by the third Partition of the Commonwealth, which forfeited its lands to Russia, Prussia and Austria, under duress. Over ninety percent of Lithuania was incorporated into the Russian Empire and the remainder into Prussia." From the Lithuania article.
Good work Andreasegde & Brakn! Just one more thing (sorry). 80 Walton Road was the address of the shop that he opened (the current wording suggests that they later moved to another premises to open the shop - we still don‘t know where Isaac first stayed in Liverpool) so I’ll change the wording to reflect this. Also, (ok, that’s two things) I’m intrigued by the revelation that Hyman was Dinah’s maiden name. Their son, Harry, also married a Hyman. Was there a connection? "So what?" I can hear others thinking! I know this is an article about Brian, but I hate loose ends.
--Patthedog (talk) 09:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, a very charming and interesting picture is beginning to emerge from all of this. One possible scenario could be: Isaac arrives in Liverpool with his sister from Russia. That would have been some journey - and by all accounts that I have read - they were penniless, and neither spoke any English. There were other Epsteins in Liverpool according to Brakn, so possibly they were able to initially stay with them. Then we have to skip a short period of time, and Isaac is now married and has his own furniture shop - that’s pretty good going! His wife, Dinah Hyman, is second generation English, and is from a relatively wealthy Russian immigrant family who have an established furniture business in Manchester. It’s unlikely they would have met by chance - that would have been a long hike in those days - so, it’s probable that Isaac and Dinah were introduced, get married, and then money is made available by her family to finance a business. This was probably a loan or a gift, as his furniture shop grew as an independent venture. We don’t know if Isaac was involved in the furniture trade before coming to England (do we?), but he certainly is now! Later, it’s quite possible that their son, Harry, was encouraged to follow in the same footsteps, as this sort of thing was quite common in those days, and he also marries a Hyman. There you have it in a nutshell!
--Patthedog (talk) 13:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Epstein's mother was registered as Minnie Hyman in 1914 and married as Minnie/Queenie in 1933 and died as Minnie/Malka so really Malka was not her official name.
Brian had two aunts that I know of; Leah born in 1912 and Stella Queenie born in 1923. Leah married John Casson in Liverpool in 1931. (I think) She was also called Lily. Stella Queenie married Myer Julius Canter in Southport in 1948. Myer became a prominent lawyer in Liverpool and was also from a Russian background.
Brakn (talk) 17:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Great to have Stella confirmed as Aunt. I have tried to contact her daughter, Angela (lives in the U.S.) on a genealogy website - to no avail so far! Thanks.
--Patthedog (talk) 18:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• I think her granddaughter lives here. Brakn (talk) 19:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm you may already know that. I think she has a Bebo site.
Brakn (talk) 19:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Is “here” U.S. or U.K.? Not explored the Bebo site. Do you have more info on that? Cheers.
--Patthedog (talk) 19:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• I reckon UK but you'd have to email me. As for the Epsteins, I would think if someone should get Isaac's marriage cert just to tidy it up; but then you straying into The Epstein family and stuff that is probably not common knowledge but still interesting.
Brakn (talk) 10:30, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• From somewhere, I have Isaac & Dinah marrying in 1900 in Manchester. Is this correct, as far as you’re aware? If so, I’ll try and retrieve their marriage certificate.
--Patthedog (talk) 12:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• You will have to go to this site www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ then register and order the certificate with a credit card.
Details:- Epstein, Issac - Hyman, Dinah
Date - Mar 1900
District - Prestwich
Volume
Page 479
and that's it. If it's not possible for you to do that let me know and I'll do it for you. best of luck.
Brakn (talk) 09:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• O.K. Done that. I’ll let you know when it arrives.Cheers,
--Patthedog (talk) 12:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

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Christine here again.
So ~ if you read this far, you would realize that apparently these Brian Wiki guys are in the habit of accessing ~ including paying for ~ actual registered legal/historical documentation, and they keep very strict attention focused upon consistency and accuracy. This is contrary to the general consensus that everything on Wikipedia is not to be trusted because it's written by regular people, and therefore the entries are vulnerable to being messed up and PWND and generally made inaccurate.

These Brian Epstein entry contributors keep on top of it all, and their dedication is VERY apparent. My gratitude, on behalf of the world, knows no bounds.

So, folks. There is hidden Brian love going on in various corners of the world, here there & everywhere. Your faithful eppylover must be one of the rare ones who "shout it from the rooftops" ~ to paraphrase an Eppy-ism.

[sudie]

just curious about a few things....
does anyone know when queenie actually died?
when did clive die? did he have any children? is his wife still alive?

[christine~]

Welcome to the forum, Sudie! I hope you will find it interesting and informative. Feel free to post or comment in any way you wish.

Sorry I didn't get to you right away; my life is in quite a transition at the moment (divorce, job search, apartment search for myself and teenage daughter) ~ Yeah! Life is SUCH a fun ride.

To answer your questions ~

Queenie died on December 14, 1996, age 82 years.

Clive, at age 51, died on February 1, 1988 of a heart attack, whilst on a skiing holiday in Austria with his family. The two oldest of their three children are still alive. I have no information on his youngest child nor his widow ~ but have not heard any bad news on them, either.

Feel free to arsk more!
*Let's play Stump The Eppylover ~!*

[sudie]

thanks so much for the info but i think u might have meant that queenie died dec 14 1996 and not 1966 as she was still alive when brian died in 1967.also i think her birth date was 1914 which would have made her 82 in 1996
glad to c it is not only me who makes slip of the fingers
would clive's children's names be joanna and henry? have not heard about his third child at all before this.and i guess his wife barbara if alive must be in her 70's by now.wow time has a way of creeping up on us.very scarey...
again thank u for your very prompt reply.and good luck apartment hunting.....

[christine~]

Oops, thanks, Sudie! As you said, slip of the fingers. My brain has also been slipping lately; too much stress I guess. Comment has been edited, and the date has been corrected now!

I copied the names and dates from photos of Harry, Queenie and Clive's gravestones. Looking at them again, it just occurred to me that there's something curious here ~ none of the stones carry birth dates. I wonder if that's a religion or tradition thing? We've lived directly across the street from a cemetery for the past 15-plus years, and ALL of them carry birth dates.

Also, Brian's niece ~ the one the books call "Joanna" ~ is spelled "Joanne" on the stones. Go figure.

Yes, the gravestones do name the grandchildren (!)
Clive and Barbara's third child is apparently named "Amanda." Perhaps she's not alive anymore either, or more possibly, she just doesn't wish people to be aware she exists. That's understandable, considering all the crazy Beatle fans and then the homophobes. Not to mention any homophobic Beatle fans! LOL

Before seeing the gravestones I had also assumed Clive/Barbara only had the two kids.

Yeah, time has passed much too quickly.
Bah. Being in yer 50's sure ain't no fun.

[christine~]

~*~*~Addition to the previously-posted genealogical folderol ~*~*~

I would guess that only the most avid Eppy historians would be interested in the following discourse.
(The eppylover herself admits to being fascinated.)

I'm copying this over to the forum under the assumption that anything posted publicly (not made private) online is free game. If I'm found to be stepping on any toes here, let me know.

In other words, I'm operating under the logic that dictates if you don't wish information to be shared, don't put it online.

---

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Brakn

• Many thanks for the Isaac info. So Dinah was a Hyman? Is that a coincidence or would that be the same family (Malka Hyman) that Harry later married into - possibly a cousin? I’ve also retrieved this from the internet: "Angela Gardner née Canter, daughter of Stella Canter née Epstein, aunt of Brian Epstein and daughter of the Isaac Epstein". Could this possibly be the daughter, Leah? More questions, always more questions!
--Patthedog 20:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Harry Epstein married Minnie/Queenie Hyman in 1933 in Ecclesall Bierlow which spans the boundaries of the counties of Derbyshire and West Riding of Yorkshire. I would think that the families must've known each other somehow - it's a fair way to Liverpool.

Minnie was born in Sheffield on the 2nd of December 1914 to parents Louis Hyman and Annie Rachel Kamise/Kimise who had married in Sheffield in 1903.

Without actually getting the certs this is the best I can come up with. This family tree would take a good bit of time to sort out!
--Brakn 09:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• So, it’s possible that there may have been some kind of “introduction” in the first place between Isaac and Dinah, and again, between Harry and Malka, within the same two families? Could that mean that Harry was possibly then related to Malka? (perfectly legal - I believe cousins can marry). BTW, do you have any early addresses relating to Isaac & Dinah apart from Walton Road? Cheers & thanks & well done - I don’t know how you make sense of it all!
--Patthedog 10:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Dinah lived at 51 Fernie St, Cheetham, Manchester in 1881 and then 3 Stanley Street, (Prestwich?) Manchester in 1891.
--Brakn 11:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks. I’ll just assume you have no other addresses for Isaac.
--Patthedog 11:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• You two hounds are hot on the scent of the trail... Great stuff.
--andreasegde 21:45, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Hi Brakn, I now have a copy of Issac & Dinah’s marriage certificate. It confirms that he was a Draper, that she was an assistant Draper. They both resided at 79, Stanley Street, Cheetham (which, I think is an area in Manchester? See Street Map) at the time (24th Jan 1900). Any use?
--Patthedog 12:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Just thinking on from this, do you think the whole thing was pre-planned, that Isaac could have travelled directly to the Hyman’s from Russia and then to Liverpool?
--Patthedog 12:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Does it give parents and witnesses?
--Brakn 13:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

• Doesn’t state his, but Dinah’s Father was Joseph. The witnesses were Leo Shaffer and Ephraim Brown (I think - the print is poor).
--Patthedog 14:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Brakn

[Genealogy EpsteinHyman]

admin said:

Eu sempre significou para tentar montar uma árvore genealógica Brian Epstein, Real Life, mas fica no caminho de tudo que eu quero realizar.

No entanto, eu faço check-up sobre o andamento dos a Brian Epstein entrada na Wikipedia e fazer pequenas edições em que eu ' m absolutamente certo de que há um erro.

Ontem eu reparei que eu tinha certeza de que deve estar errado: ele disse que o avô de Brian Epstein Isaac Dinah casado Hyman ~ ~ bem, desde que o pai de Brian Harry Malka casado (Queenie) Hyman, claro ambos de Brian e sua mãe nome de solteira da avó não podia ser idênticos. Obviamente, um deslize, alguém não teve o cuidado, alguém confuso Brian mãe e avó.

Assim, antes da entrada arbitrariamente edição de hoje ~ e como? ~ Afinal, eu não tinha idéia do que o nome de solteira de Diná era realmente ~ Andei mais para a discussão de Brian "área para verificar se alguém mencionou.

Surpresa.
Aqui está o que eu encontrei ~ ~

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from TALK: Brian Epstein

 • Isaac Epstein
Alguém tem mais informações sobre o avô de Brian, Isaac? Eu sei que ele era um imigrante russo, e chegou em Liverpool com sua irmã. Ele abriu sua primeira loja em Walton Road e, presumivelmente, viveu sobretudo em um primeiro momento. Eu estaria interessado em saber onde ele morava, em seguida, etc Obrigado,
- Patthedog (talk) 12:10, 19 Janeiro 2008 (UTC)

 • Patthedog sabe disso agora, mas outros editores devem saber que o pai de Epstein era de Hodan, Lituânia.
- andreasegde (talk) 00:09, 24 Fevereiro 2008 (UTC)

 • Brakn desenterrou um censo que diz Isaac Epstein e Rachael nasceram na Rússia, embora eu tenha visto Lituânia mencionado algumas vezes na net e em livros.
- andreasegde (talk) 21:41, 18 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Got it: "Em 1795, o estado conjunto foi dissolvido pela terceira partição da República, que perdeu suas terras para a Rússia, a Prússia ea Áustria, sob coação. Mais de noventa por cento da Lituânia, foi incorporado no Império Russo eo restante para a Prússia. "Desde o artigo Lituânia.
Bom trabalho Andreasegde & Brakn! Só mais uma coisa (desculpe). 80 Walton Road foi o endereço da loja que ele abriu (o texto actual sugere que mais tarde mudou-se para outro local para abrir a loja - nós ainda não sabemos onde ficou em primeiro Isaac Liverpool) então eu vou mudar o texto para refletir isso. Além disso, (ok, isso é duas coisas) Eu estou intrigado com a revelação de que Hyman foi o nome de solteira de Diná. Seu filho, Harry, também se casou com um Hyman. Havia uma conexão? "So what?" Eu posso ouvir os outros a pensar! Eu sei que este é um artigo sobre Brian, mas eu odeio pontas soltas.
- Patthedog (talk) 09:05, 19 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Na verdade, uma imagem muito charmosa e interessante está começando a emergir de tudo isso. Um cenário possível seria: Isaac chega a Liverpool com a irmã da Rússia. Isso teria sido alguma viagem - e por todas as contas que tenho lido - eles estavam sem dinheiro, e nem falou qualquer Inglês. Havia Epsteins outro em Liverpool de acordo com Brakn, então possivelmente eles foram capazes de inicialmente ficar com eles. Então nós temos que pular um curto período de tempo, e Isaac é casado e tem a sua própria loja de móveis - que está indo muito bem! Sua esposa, Dinah Hyman, é a segunda geração de Inglês, e é de uma família relativamente rico imigrante russo que tem um negócio de móveis com sede em Manchester. É improvável que eles se encontraram por acaso - que teria sido uma longa caminhada, naqueles dias - por isso, é provável que Isaac e Dinah foram introduzidas, se casar, e então o dinheiro é disponibilizado por sua família para financiar um negócio. Esta foi, provavelmente, um empréstimo ou uma doação, como a sua loja de móveis cresceu como uma empresa independente. Nós não sabemos se Isaac estava envolvida no comércio de móveis antes de vir para a Inglaterra (não é?), Mas ele certamente é agora! Mais tarde, é bem possível que seu filho, Harry, foi incentivado a seguir os mesmos passos, como este tipo de coisa era bastante comum naqueles dias, e ele também se casa com uma Hyman. Lá você tem em poucas palavras!
- Patthedog (talk) 13:07, 19 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • A mãe de Epstein foi registrada como Minnie Hyman em 1914 e casou-se como Minnie / Queenie em 1933 e morreu como Minnie / Malka Malka assim realmente não era o seu nome oficial.
Brian tinha duas tias que eu sei; Leah nascido em 1912 e Queenie Stella nasceu em 1923. Leah se casou com John Casson em Liverpool, em 1931. (Eu acho) Ela também foi chamada Lily. Stella Queenie casado Myer Julius Canter em Southport, em 1948. Myer se tornou um proeminente advogado em Liverpool e também de um fundo russo.
Brakn (talk) 17:47, 21 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Great to have Stella confirmado como tia. Eu tentei entrar em contato com sua filha, Angela (vive os E.U.) em um site de genealogia - em vão tão longe! Obrigado.
- Patthedog (talk) 18:55, 21 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Acho que sua neta mora aqui. Brakn (talk) 19:15, 21 Março 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm você já deve saber que. Acho que ela tem um site Bebo.
Brakn (talk) 19:17, 21 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Está aqui "ou E.U. U.K.? Não explorou o site Bebo. Você tem mais informações sobre isso? Felicidades.
- Patthedog (talk) 19:29, 21 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Reino Unido, mas eu acho que você tem que me e-mail. Quanto à Epsteins, eu acho que se alguém deve começar cert Isaac casamento apenas para arrumá-lo, mas então você perder-se na família Epstein e outras coisas que provavelmente não é do conhecimento comum, mas ainda interessante.
Brakn (talk) 10:30, 22 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • De algum lugar, eu tenho Isaac & Dinah casar-se em 1900 em Manchester. Isto é correto, na medida em que você está ciente? Se assim for, eu vou tentar recuperar sua certidão de casamento.
- Patthedog (talk) 12:31, 22 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • Você terá que ir a este site www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ em seguida, registrar e ordenar o certificado com um cartão de crédito.
Detalhes: - Epstein, Issac - Hyman, Dinah
Data - março 1900
Distrito - Prestwich
Volume
Page 479
and that's it. Se não for possível para você fazer isso deixe-me saber e eu vou fazer isso para você. Best of luck.
Brakn (talk) 09:47, 24 Março 2008 (UTC)

 • O.K. Feito isso. Vou deixar que você sabe quando arrives.Cheers,
- Patthedog (talk) 12:19, 24 Março 2008 (UTC)

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Christine aqui novamente.
~ Então, se você leu até aqui, você iria perceber que, aparentemente, esses caras Brian Wiki têm o hábito de acessar ~ ~ incluindo pagamento de reais registrado legal / documentação histórica, e eles continuam muito estrita atenção centrada na consistência e precisão. Isto é contrário ao consenso geral de que tudo na Wikipedia não é confiável porque é escrito por as pessoas normais, e, portanto, as entradas são vulneráveis a serem desarrumada e PWND e feitos geralmente imprecisos.

Estes contribuintes entrada Brian Epstein manter no topo de tudo isso, e por sua dedicação é muito aparente. Minha gratidão, em nome do mundo, não conhece limites.

Então, pessoal. Lá Brian escondido amor acontecendo em vários cantos do mundo, aqui e ali por toda parte. Seu eppylover fiéis deve ser uma das raras que "a mensagem de cima dos telhados" ~ parafraseando um Eppy-ismo.

Você sabiam que Linda McCartney era descendente de judeus Russos de sobrenome Epstein?Genealogy! Epstein/Hyman

[Guest]

Si!